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Jan 17 16 4:06 PM

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Greetings all:

Just a note to be careful of Fakels, especially those emanating from Albuquerque, New Mexico.  This latest one appears to be questionable and might be from the same person in the same city that had posted a questionable Gray Lady.  Bear in mind that Albuquerque is the city where the big FBI investigated a Nagel fraud center a while after Nagel's death.  I cover the entire incident in my Nagel bio, but the short story is that when Jeff Wasserman stopped printing, Santiago Samper, whose work standards, morals and ethics were not as high as Wasserman's, took over. Eventually, the FBI discovered that one of Samper's employees took plates to her own shop where she printed up fakes.  That's why you have to be absolutely certain that whay you're buying is genuine.  The signatures on the piece linked here do not appear to be genuine to me.  The market for Nagels work does seem to be resurging and the thieves know it.
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#1 [url]

Jan 17 16 8:35 PM

Do u think he took the real litho and just forged signature. Also the plates that were stolen from the printers in the 80s do we know which plates were stolen and were they ever recovered by the fbi. We all want nagels work to go up to a realistic value and when it does this type of thing will happen more and more. Correct?

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#2 [url]

Jan 17 16 9:38 PM

I wasn't able to get a listing of the pieces whose plates were ripped off. However, they seem to have been stolen after Nagel's death and from Samper's shop. Add in Bornstein's dubious claims about "limited editions," and it becomes clear why Patrick's posthumous work dropped so precipitously in value. 

Yes, I expect we'll also see more lifetime posters being put up as limited editions with forged numbers and signatures. 

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#5 [url]

Jan 20 16 10:13 AM

Thinking that is the small standing lady

Not the large one. The other print raises concern on this one and when i go look at the signature. The "a" in nagel looks larger and wider than the several i looked at and the "2" looks off . The angle not right. That is just my observation. But that does look better than his other. If those signatures are not true then there is major problem becsuse that is not a sis and would mean print is not authorized

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#7 [url]

Jan 27 16 11:54 AM

Perfect example of frauds on EBay

This listing is bouncing around all over the place and is a perfect example of the clumsier frauds out there.  Also, if you're trying to buy authentic Nagel limited, signed and numbered editions, you can see some being listed for anywhere from $2500 to $6000+.  NONE of these are selling at those prices. I reached out to one seller who admitted as much. They just keep re-listing the items year after year. 

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#10 [url]

May 27 16 5:44 PM

Regarding the original eBay link, that was mine. FYI- I received this message from Mo at Todd Bingham when I asked about authentication:

"The Nagel prints that were counterfeited in Albuquerque were the later prints, mostly the early Commemorative Nagels (specifically CN#2, CN#3, and CN#4)
These were 3 of the 15 Nagel serigraphs machine-produced and released after Pat died (from 1984 through 1988)"

 I probably won't be getting an appraisal or letter of assessment any time soon, due to cost, but I will be relisting them because I just hit the motherlode at an estate sale today.
Black Robe A/P
Park South Gallery A/P
Lorraine S/N 182/250
Galerie Michael S/N 133/250
Collectors Gallery SIS, autographed to owner, dated
AND a May 1983 copy of Palm Springs Life magazine, which features said piece on the cover! 

But thanks to this thread and others here, I had the know how to plunge ahead and buy them and pass on all the unsigned pieces.I'll post pics as soon as I figure it out.

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#11 [url]

May 27 16 7:31 PM

Todd knows a lot about this. However, those he mentioned were merely the ones the FBI found because those were the ones they were looking for. As I've outlined in the book, Samper himself hid pieces that were found only after his own death decades late.  There's no telling how many other serigraphs were printed without signatures and stored, with signatures to be forged at a later date. 

Rob Frankel
Author, "The Artist Who Loved Women" A biography of Patrick Nagel

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#12 [url]

Jan 28 17 9:20 PM

The Art Expo NY 1980 looked legtiamite to me. Over the last 30 years, I purchased almost all of the limited edition posters unsigned (signed in the screen, or, for all the Expo pieces, signed in the plate) before I became enamoured with the cool factor of having the prints hand signed by Patrick Nagel if only to think "At one point, he actually touched this print, even just long enough to sign it and number it."

When I upgraded to a Art Expo NY 1980 hand signed and numbered, it matches this one, with a double signature, one is the plate signature, the second, in pencil along with the numbering. Also, while I did not buy a lot of pieces from Todd Bingham, I did buy my Art Expo NY 1980 signed from them along with my Malke-Sage signed and a few others. Todd and Mo would not have sold me a piece that had a fake signature.

As I mentioned at the former Patrick Nagel forum that Jennifer's brother was the admin of, both Art Expo New York lithos, 1980 and 1981, were double signed. Art Expo Cal 1981 is the exception of the lithos in that they do not include both the plate signature and the hand signature for the hand signed ones.

I do see fakes on eBay, but most are prints that folks have printed themselves, with the scale wrong, preventing confusion with the offically released prints. These prints often appear to have origins as high quality scans obtained from auction houses that count on international buyers to bid, who in turn depend on seeing those high quality scans of original works to asertain their condition and qualities and how much they are willing to bid.

The other fakes I see a lot are images cut out of the book or calendars.  Any potential bidder should always ask the seller to provide them the dimensions of the piece they are selling if there is any doubt. That usually reveals if the piece is an offical print or not. Paper Mill and Park South Gallery seem the most prone to be cut outs from the book, listed inside a frame with matting, being sold, mistakenly, as a limited edition print.

Last Edited By: Nagel Angel Jan 28 17 10:59 PM. Edited 3 times.

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#13 [url]

Jan 28 17 9:29 PM

We know a lot. We know that Samper printed none of the early peices and most of the later pieces, along with the large Collectors Gallery, Michelle, all of the NC/CN series pieces, among others.

Wasserman printed most of the 17" x 25" limited edition serigraph posters. I believe the first Samper lifetime limited edition poster is "Mirage."
Some, but not all, of Wasserman-printed Nagel limited edition graphics have Wasserman's "W" block embossed in the margin.

Samper does seem to have printed extras, and kept test prints, and prints with some minor registration issues. When Samper's shop closed, some of these prints were passed to brokers who sold at least a few of them as unsigned and uncut sheets that annouce to anyone that looks at them that they are outside of the edition. Even the estate sold several prints, like a Dyansen double that looked like a tribute to Warhol with all the registration errors and missing colors, that was sold as a test print and nothing more.

I have a large Collectors Gallery that was deliberately kept uncut, and it still has has the registration targets outside the image area that shows how they determined that the screens were aligned properly. If anyone wanted to fool someone they would not keep the print untrimmed. Frankly, it made it easier to frame and becomes a point of interest. At some point I do want one that Pat signed, but this one is nice in the meantime.

And, yes, as Rob states, Santiago Samper had fewer scruples than Jeff Wasserman.

It also complicates matters that Pat himself often had unsigned and even untrimmed pieces that he gave away. I purchased an unsigned and untrimmed Mask that Pat had displayed in his studio for years. I purchased it directly from Jennifer. She provided me a certificate of authenticy, noting it as an "unsigned AP" because I as much as I wanted this one, that had hung in Nagel
s studio, I also wanted something to note that it was not a fake or a forgery.

I know Pat had several pieces in his art drawers that he intended to sign and never did, too.

Pat also gave away unsigned prints as gifts. One gentleman who was Pat and Jennifer's neighboor back in the 1980s has a couple of original paintings that Jennifer sold to him after Pat died, but before Pat died, he gave the neighboor an unsigned "Great Dame" as a gift.

I have seen folks fake signatures on peices that were signed in the screen, and I have also seen an unsigned peice or two taken from Samper's stash and see them signed, too.

They are few and far between. Luckily, most forgers don't pay enough attention and tend to mark the prints AP and don't do a good enough job make the AP look like Nagel's A and P.

La410 wrote:
Do u think he took the real litho and just forged signature. Also the plates that were stolen from the printers in the 80s do we know which plates were stolen and were they ever recovered by the fbi. We all want nagels work to go up to a realistic value and when it does this type of thing will happen more and more. Correct?

 

Last Edited By: Nagel Angel Jan 29 17 2:15 AM. Edited 8 times.

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#14 [url]

Jan 28 17 9:40 PM

I am following up on some of these critical postings, as I think it is very important that we collaborate and share the information we have so folks can make the most informed decisions possible, and those folks that have pieces can learn more and list them correctly if they hope to sell them.

Based on all my years of experience this Nagel Nagel version of Kristen seems authentic. We all want to help make sure we're identifying pieces correctly, and this piece does suffer from blurry images, which is a problem, but even with a focus issue, I can tell this is an authentic signed in the screen "Nagel Nagel" that was dedicated by hand by Pat.

Yes, the seller commits a major faux pas by posting blurry images, which should always make buyers cautious, but, even blurry, I can tell this is one of those prints, like Dyansen and Gallerie Michael, that many folks paid a bit extra during a gallery appearence to have Patrick personally sign and date for them, like "To George and Mary, May 22, 1983."

I have noticed that the "Nagel Nagel" version of Kristen, along with Gallerie Michael, and Dyansen seem to have the highest numbers of signed in screen (s-i-s) prints with these types of dedications on them. The good news is that all those words in Nagel's distinctive handwriring would be really challenging to attempt to fake and the movation would not be there to do such, as these are still, technically, the signed in screen prints and not the signed and numbered.

There is even a photo of Pat at the Dyansen Gallery dedicating pieces in this manner. ("Black Bustier" is shown prominenty in the background.)

Yes, the seller also did not correctly note this is the "Nagel Nagel" version of "Kristen," but they would not be the first seller to misunderstand what they are selling. A quick Google search would have led them to misname the print. It doesn't help that Nagel Nagel is not a good title. Folks often mis-identify "Gallerie Michael" as "Michelle," and Wasserman as Standing Lady too, but that just shows some easy mistake making and not fraud in most cases.

There are prints out there with faked signatures, but most of the ones I have seen with faked signatures were later liftimetime-released graphics, and the signatures and markings have been pretty obious (at leat to me) in the fakery.

robfrankel wrote:
This listing is bouncing around all over the place and is a perfect example of the clumsier frauds out there.  Also, if you're trying to buy authentic Nagel limited, signed and numbered editions, you can see some being listed for anywhere from $2500 to $6000+.  NONE of these are selling at those prices. I reached out to one seller who admitted as much. They just keep re-listing the items year after year. 

 

Last Edited By: Nagel Angel Jan 29 17 2:19 AM. Edited 10 times.

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