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Oct 14 12 10:16 AM

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Anybody see this listing on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Patrick-Nagel-art-/120998685413?item=120998685413&ViewItem=&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123&nma=true&si=NsuIgC%2F8TcyEHERvo71fpo2gSio%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



Bad pictures, vague description, but someone took a flyer at $5k with buy it now.  I'm assuming the buyer thinks it's an original painting, but the really odd thing about this piece (aside from the 0 feedback seller and aforementioned bad pictures and description) is that it looks like it was signed in pencil outside the image.  All the signed originals I've seen have been signed in ink/paint inside the image.


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#1 [url]

Oct 14 12 11:58 AM

All sorts of red flags on that one.  And the description was also incredibly vague.  Calling an original rare is just weird when it is a one of one original.

I think the buyer has no recourse if this is a print out of the promotional jpeg sent out by Just Looking Gallery when they released a print of this piece in 2007. Since it can be about anything the seller wants it to be and still be "as described."

NA

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#2 [url]

Oct 14 12 2:33 PM

Don't lmpw about this one either.  Could be the guache on board.  Signature looks good, but who knows?  Looks like someone bit for $5K before it was pulled.  Hopefully any buyer will do the due diligence before exchanging cash. 

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#3 [url]

Oct 15 12 8:54 AM

    Thinking about this a bit more, I'm guessing that for the three giclees they produced, Just Looking would have used images from originals that had access to.  Theory being that it might give a little more cache to those originals.  As such, assuming someone bought Madame X from Just Looking, it would've sold for at least double the Ebay price of the piece above, and whoever bought it would never sell it on Ebay.

    Just one more reason why I didn't pull the trigger on the Ebay piece even though I saw it when it was still live.

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#4 [url]

Oct 15 12 1:12 PM

The seller just emailed me back stating that he has had this piece for well over 20 years now. I am trying to get more info but of course I invited him here. Asked him to contact us here or put it up again on ebay with more pics and more details and I asked him if it is the gouche on board..waiting for the response. I don't think its working out with his buyer if someone really wants it.

Its a cool piece.. and if it is the original gouche on board worth the money, right?

Lets ask each other some basic questions if it is gouche on board or he states it is so...The background is pink, the Just Looking piece is red background. Did Nagel ever sign outside of image in what appears to be pencil on his originals?


swimmersgirl

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#6 [url]

Oct 15 12 2:08 PM

Here is what I know right now (and I am not an expert). Someone did purchase it with Buy It Now. I emailed the seller for more info on the piece after it was gone (in the event it didn't work out and because I really wanted more info!! It is really a fun piece that I love).

The seller has emailed me back that it doesn't appear to be working out with the buyer. This could be taken many ways...Maybe the buyer is nervous about its authenticity or has remorse or maybe because I believe at least 4 Nagel collectors (all probably on here lol) have now contacted this seller in interest and have told him 5k was low and they might pay more, the seller might be pulling out of the deal to hopefully sell for more. All these are possible scenarios.

From what I have been told the original playboy magazine image was with PINK background !! I spoke to Ken at "Just Looking" gallery that released the limited editions and they did not have the original to work from but the scan reference from Jennifer and the estate. They didn't know where it was and Ken does not know the seller.

The seller states he has had this for well over 20 years. I will post more if I get more info from him. I have asked him about its provenance and have not heard. I also question the signature? Is it pencil, ink?..As far as I have seen Nagels signatures were done within the image. I know many originals however were left by Nagel unsigned due to his death and it is also possible that this is a original that was later forged as we have seen sadly done to other pieces, but it may still be an original?

Okay yes I am a bit excited to see ANY original. If anyone else has more info please advise thoughts. I hope the seller puts it back up for auction with tons of description (including purchase history) and photos and it is truly the real thing. I hope one of us here gets it. Is it too early to buy myself a Christmas present if I can authenticate the piece. Hmm? I have been good this year. lol

swimmersgirl

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#7 [url]

Oct 15 12 2:51 PM

Swimmersgirl,

Looking at the painting in raking light will likely provide the info you need as to its authenticity (if you know what you are looking for).  The signature is not a big deal.  Pat rarely signed, and when he did, it could be anywhere, and either pencil, ink, or even ball point pen.



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#8 [url]

Oct 15 12 4:04 PM

Here is my last email from the seller for all of you:

"Did not get it from a gallery there was an appraisal done on it when I received it . The appraisal was lost many years go but if my memory serves me right it was 9500 back then. My wife seems to recall for some reason that there was only 3 of these at that time according to the appraisal. I did post 3 pictures on ebay. The signature is beneath the right corner of piece and is in a mauve tone ... could be pencil I guess but dont know.The size of the actual piece is 10x13 i'm sure unframed it is larger."

I don't know what he means by 3 of these? But I wrote back to ask if he means 2 other identical images or different. Obviously if there are two others out there that are identical to this it can't be an original right. I mean to ask here (as a newbie) Patrick seems to often do same pieces but maybe with different colors or whatever but I don't see why there would be two others. I am trying to clear this up with the seller as to his meaning. I also asked if he could provide the name of whom he purchased it from maybe it is someone in the collecting world we all know?

Swimmersgirl

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#9 [url]

Oct 15 12 5:19 PM

               
 . . .I don't know what he means by 3 of these? But I wrote back to ask if he means 2 other identical images or different. Obviously if there are two others out there that are identical to this it can't be an original right. I mean to ask here (as a newbie) Patrick seems to often do same pieces but maybe with different colors or whatever but I don't see why there would be two others.

-swimmersgirl

There can be strikingly similar versions of the same general painting.  I strongly suspect that we have a very green and inexperienced seller.  It may be an original, but I would still want some verification.

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#10 [url]

Oct 17 12 1:45 PM



A good point was raised in terms of whether Pat signed the works he did sign inside or outside of the image area.  Looking at a few, it seems as random as whether he signed them. 

Maybe he did it outside the image when the image had an element extended beyond the window frame (like a whip, or hand, or roller-skate)?  It is anyone's guess until we catalog them all.   
See attached images, two signed outside the image's frame, one not signed at all, and the drawing of the iffy original in question just for fun.




Cheers,

NA








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#11 [url]

Oct 17 12 2:20 PM

    To me, the sig in the Ebay listing doesn't match the age of the painting.  In other words, the painting looks like it was done 1980-1982, while the sig looks like the one he used later in Nagel's career.  Of course, that doesn't preclude the possibility that the painting was done in a certain year, and then years later Nagel signed it when it was sold.

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#12 [url]

Oct 17 12 2:56 PM


Fully agree.  The signature also just seems a bit large for the piece.

"Madame X" appeared in Playboy in September of 1979.  At that point, Pat's signature on his signed prints was not quite that stylized.  Once I get home, I will look at some hand-signed prints during that window of time and post comparative signatures.

    To me, the sig in the Ebay listing doesn't match the age of the painting.  In other words, the painting looks like it was done 1980-1982, while the sig looks like the one he used later in Nagel's career.  Of course, that doesn't preclude the possibility that the painting was done in a certain year, and then years later Nagel signed it when it was sold.

-nagelcollector

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#13 [url]

Oct 17 12 3:31 PM

I'm impressed guys!  You noticed the signature style did not match the period in which the painting was created. 

If this is an original, my bets are with you both that it was created and later signed near the time it was to be sold as art. 

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#14 [url]

Oct 17 12 6:34 PM

Okay, so here are three signatures off of hand signed prints.  Note that "Park South Gallery," the center signature image, was released the same month that "Madame X" appeared in Playboy.

The signature on the iffy "Madame X" appears to be a blend (at least to me) between September 1979 and March 1980

Fun topic!  We are our own "History Detectives!"  
Cheers,

NA

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#15 [url]

Oct 17 12 8:07 PM

Re Gunwald, it's interesting to note the difference between the signature in the screen and the pencil signature.

Personally, I've never seen an original with a pencil sig on it.  That said, when someone can't remember where they got a $10k painting from, that's a huge red flag.

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#16 [url]

Oct 18 12 7:07 AM



Of the signed originals I have seen, like you, I believe all of them were done in either ink or paint.  I only used the pencil signatures since we know when those signatures were done down to the month in Pat's timeline and I am making the assumption that when Nagel modified his signature in pencil, it is close proximity to the way he would have signed originals in ink or paint.

For the signed in screen signatures, I know Nagelite got to hold the templates all at one point during a visit to Wasserman's studio.  It appears they just used the same template over and over again for several series of pri=ints, only changing it a few times over the course of the manufacture of the posters over the years.  I used to know exactly with which print the change over occurred, but now that I have redistributed all of my signed in screen prints, that change over is starting to get foggy.

[I believe you already know this, NagelCollector, but just for everyone's education]
I recall only three signatures used for the signed in screen images: the block one (as seen on "Mirage Ship") was used through until, I think, about the time of "Yochum-Kay" and then the one that I see on "Lorriane" looks like it was used all the way through to "NC/CN 2: Palm Springs Life" and then they transition to the last one with "NC/NC 3: Sushi Girl" and that one appears on everything thereafter including the lithos.

best,

NA


Re Gunwald, it's interesting to note the difference between the signature in the screen and the pencil signature.Personally, I've never seen an original with a pencil sig on it.  That said, when someone can't remember where they got a $10k painting from, that's a huge red flag.

-nagelcollector


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#17 [url]

Dec 2 12 8:03 PM

Well, lookie here:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=neal4258&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=120998685413&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

Negative feedback ratingItem was a fake and the seller was just trying to scam with Paypal. Beware.Nov-28-12 17:56

  • Reply by neal4258 (Nov-29-12 12:20):
    ITEM WAS NOT A FAKE, BUYER NEVER PAID FOR THE ITEM BY PUTTING FUNDS IN PAY PAL A
 Patrick Nagel art (#120998685413)US $5,000.00View Item

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